Scott Shafer: Yeah, the truth is, these issues are persevering with. And Marisa, we initially had this dialog with Nancy Pelosi scheduled for Tuesday of this week, and we needed to transfer it to Monday as a result of she needed to be again in D.C. And naturally, we this was all arrange months in the past. We had no thought every thing that was being taking place, together with the struggle between Israel and Hamas. So it was , there was a lot to speak about.
Marisa Lagos: Yeah. I imply, as any individual who I’m fairly positive by no means takes a time off, even Pelosi appeared prefer it had been fairly per week or two. Proper. I imply, , there was clearly Senator Dianne Feinstein’s demise, the form of, .
Scott Shafer: Emotional impression.
Marisa Lagos: The outpouring and and the entire issues that I believe Pelosi needed to be and felt that she needs to be out round that the appointment of Lafond, a butler to the Senate after which, as you stated, this sort of mess within the Home which simply it was fascinating watching her as a result of she’s undoubtedly in her aspect in a manner now that she was not when she was the chief of the Democrats.
Scott Shafer: Yeah, nicely, she’s like form of, , unshackled in a manner. I imply, she she she’s lower unfastened from having to signify your complete caucus. And now she’s from, quote unquote, liberal San Francisco. She will be able to actually converse her thoughts. Unplugged is the phrase I used to be searching for, which she very a lot is plugged in to every thing. And it does. You do marvel like, sure, Hakeem Jeffries is the, , the minority chief. However you’ve received to assume they’re on the cellphone fairly repeatedly speaking about technique and you know the way to play sure issues. And, , the caucus got here out very united towards serving to Kevin McCarthy maintain on to the speakership. Seven Republicans form of bailed on him. And, , it was fascinating to listen to her ideas on why didn’t Democrats assist McCarthy. And, .
Marisa Lagos: However you say she’s unplugged, however she’s nonetheless Pelosi. And like, let’s be clear, you’ll hear this many times. Pelosi says what Pelosi needs. Like there isn’t a there are a lot of instances the place she simply form of like heard our query and form of got here again to it later. However she undoubtedly may be very a lot in form of cost of her schools with regards to speaking to the press and figuring out when she would and wouldn’t make information, for instance, once we pushed her on. Look, , on the time it was an actual contest between Jim Jordan, who’s extra of a form of MAGA extremist Republican, and Scalise, who can be, I believe in previous years would have been thought-about a fairly laborious proper man, however in today is extra of an institution Republican. And, , I believe she made very clear she didn’t wish to weigh in on that, saying why would I assist them or harm them by saying I like them.
Scott Shafer: As if, , saying one thing good would possibly really harm them, though I believe it’s proves fairly clear studying between the strains. She doesn’t assume a lot of Jim Jordan, who based the Freedom Caucus, however I’m positive she’s not buddies with Scalise, though they’re each Italian. So she didn’t chew on that one. However yeah, so, , all this stuff that I assume are going to emerge. After which in fact, , McCarthy has form of provided himself up if they’ll’t, , get the votes for both Scalise or Jordan, I can’t actually see that occuring. However who is aware of they proper now, as a result of clearly, though they , Scalise had a plurality of the votes or a majority of the caucus, he’s nowhere close to the 218 he must win.
Marisa Lagos: Yeah, I imply, I’ll say to one of many stuff you additionally hear, I believe Pelosi has actually mastered this skill. That’s very uncommon, I believe, for ladies in politics to each be very assured with out sounding form of braggadocious. And so it might level, , you you say you’ve referred to as your self a grasp legislator. She’s like, yeah, I’ve. You understand, after which there’s a pair different humorous moments like that when, , we’ll get to this subsequent week as a result of we even have a second episode together with her out of this. However asking her about the way forward for her congressional seat, her daughter Christine, who’s rumored to wish to run, was sitting within the entrance row, form of form of egging her on the entire time. So, , I simply assume she once more, it was clear that she was form of having fun with among the politics of what’s occurring, not having to be within the driver’s seat.
Scott Shafer: Yeah, she got here wearing like a lavender pantsuit, appeared very snug. And so, as you stated, we’re going to be listening to in only a second the primary or not not precisely the primary half, however half of the interview. After which subsequent week she’ll be speaking extra concerning the followers of Butler, the ideas about that Senate seat, which we nonetheless don’t know at this as we converse proper right here right now, whether or not Lafond, about who’s going to run for the six 12 months full time period. We additionally talked a little bit bit about Paul Pelosi, her husband, who was together with her on the memorial for Senator Feinstein. And, , she stated a little bit bit extra about him that than she has prior to now. And I believe they stated we’ll hear extra of that subsequent week. After which a little bit revelation. Because of Mark Barabak from the L.A. Instances. We requested her about her obvious fondness for the Grateful Lifeless.
Marisa Lagos: I imply, simply colour me shocked. If there was a band, I’d have thought that Nancy Pelosi could be in and too, it might not have been the Grateful Lifeless. However she’s been to many live shows, together with the allegedly remaining one, , one in all many Closing Lifeless live shows she’s referring to.
Scott Shafer: Bobbie, I used to be like, that’s received to be Bob Weir, she says, Oh, yeah, Bobby.
Marisa Lagos: Bobby. Bobby. And, , gave a shout out to U2 as nicely and did clear up a rumor. Apparently Paul Pelosi doesn’t really do her buying.
Scott Shafer: Yeah, that was that’s been on the market within the ether Ethernet Web for a very long time. However yeah, she does her personal buying. Yeah. So we’re going to listen to all of that. After which, as you stated, tune in subsequent week for the second a part of this dialog. She is, , 83 years previous, however, , very clearly accountable for, , the form of the surroundings that she excels in, which is the sector.
Marisa Lagos: Brushed them off.
Scott Shafer: Yeah, she did, However she stated she’s able to go. All proper. We’re going to take a brief break. And once we come again, we’re going to listen to our dialog with Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.
Scott Shafer: Please welcome Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. All proper. Properly, what are we going to speak about tonight?
Nancy Pelosi: What has modified.
Scott Shafer: We all know that you just and Mayor Breed yesterday, I imagine, had been at a rally in assist of Israel. Clearly, there’s a horrible struggle that’s underway proper now. Tons of have died on either side. And we’re questioning, to start with, simply since that is on the prime of the information, what do you see as probably the most quick time period implications of all this?
Nancy Pelosi: Properly, thanks. It’s great to be with you. Thanks all for being right here. Change of date. That’s all the time nicely, that’s the life I lead. After we accepted the invitation and so honored to be with all of you, each time that was, what, two weeks in the past or one thing longer?
Scott Shafer: Months.
Nancy Pelosi: Months. Okay, nicely, simply within the final ten days, we misplaced our pricey Diane. The invasion of Israel. So horrible. And, in fact, the confusion on the opposite aspect of the aisle. This yesterday we had been at a temple. It was a giant outpouring of assist for Israel. Additionally, I used to be in a position to say that Mike Pappas was there, head of interfaith council, and he stated that that Christians, Catholics, everybody, each faith was mourning for the Israelis and sending their assist. That is one thing so tragic. You understand, there are a lot of injustices on the earth, one factor and one other. However there isn’t a excuse for the barbaric violence that was we noticed occur in Israel. I had a pal whose niece, Grande, whose niece was killed, her husband was killed and the toddler child had been killed there. Little kids, different little kids, that they had hid in a closet and so they had been later rescued. However what the barbaric nature of that, there’s no it’s. Some individuals say it’s unforgivable. I don’t prefer to assume that something is unforgivable, nevertheless it’s very near unforgivable that that will that that will occur. So if you say the place will we go from right here? We all the time should see every thing as a possibility to see how we are able to deliver individuals collectively. That is actually laborious. And we’re laborious as a result of we don’t. We’ll see what occurs in the long run. The violence that seems to be persevering with.
Scott Shafer: While you say it’s laborious, what do you imply?
Nancy Pelosi: Properly, when human life is taken in a manner. Now, once more, are there international locations which might be at struggle? I’ve I really feel the identical manner about Putin in Ukraine, kidnaping kids, killing and raping ladies. I don’t know if the rape is occurring in Israel, however that’s what’s taking place in Ukraine. There’s no that’s utilizing. Violence towards civilians as a weapon of struggle. Don’t be a coward. You received’t go for struggle. Struggle militarily. That’s not one thing we love. However don’t take it out on the youngsters, the mothers, the households right here, they kidnap. You possibly can see them kidnaping little kids. 80 12 months previous grandmoms. All the remainder. So it’s it’s very laborious. To beat that form of loss in your loved ones and your group and in your nation. However allow us to pray. Allow us to pray that some good can come of it. They had been observing the fiftieth anniversary of the Yom Kippur Struggle, and folks stated that some good issues that was not a superb factor, a struggle. However really, there was a path to some. Higher scenario following that. Perhaps one thing will come right here, nevertheless it’s very laborious to see and it’ll take some time, I believe.
Marisa Lagos: Do you assume? I imply, we’ve seen President Biden name this Israeli authorities probably the most excessive ever, President Netanyahu. Prime Minister Netanyahu has been, , engaged on dismantling the court docket and I believe, , isolating the settlements. I would like, , the Gaza Strip. Does all of that complicate the best way that you just and others in Washington can reply to this?
Nancy Pelosi: No, I imply, I’m not a giant fan of the present authorities of of Israel. And all that you just say is of concern, however none of it. None of it makes any distinction when when navy drive is available in and begins killing civilians and kidnaping and the remainder. So I don’t see any relationship between the 2.
Marisa Lagos: Do you assume that we’re listening to tonight that there could also be a transfer to hyperlink Ukraine assist and Israeli assist and Congress? What do you concentrate on that?
Nancy Pelosi: Properly, I believe that we’ve got to do each. So I’m okay with linking it, however we don’t actually also have a functioning Home of Representatives and hopefully once we do, that can be facilitated. However the there’s robust assist for Ukraine assist within the Congress of the US, bipartisan Home and Senate. There’s robust assist for Israeli help to Israel. One of many points that we’re all going through is the destiny of People in Israel. Some are guests, some are by Israeli America. They’ve twin citizenship. All of them are of concern to us, not any greater than some other Israeli. However nonetheless, that’s our accountability.
Scott Shafer: Properly, let’s shift to what’s taking place in Washington and or not taking place. I do know you’re as we stated, you’re going again tomorrow. There’s by some means. There’ll ultimately be a speaker.
Nancy Pelosi: Sure.
Scott Shafer: How are you and your caucus eager about that vote?
Nancy Pelosi: Properly, simply so , I imply, I believe it’s essential to notice as a result of the issues individuals say, I believe, no, that’s not the way it works. You have got an election. Someone wins. The occasion that wins, selects, nominates and chooses the Speaker of the Home. So once I see on TV, they are saying the Democrats and eight Republicans took down the speaker. No Republicans took down their speaker. That I met once I all of the instances I used to be elected chief or speaker for 20 years. I by no means had one Republican vote, nor would it not have been applicable. It’s as much as the occasion to elect its leaders, whether or not it’s the speaker or the chief. It’s as much as the occasion. So I haven’t the I’d be the final particular person to behave ask about what’s occurring within the Republican caucus or second final. However proper up there. Proper up there. And I simply hope and pray that they’ll come to their very own unity. However it’s it’s very troublesome as a result of individuals stated, nicely, why didn’t you all vote for them and this or that? We stated, nicely, if that isn’t our position, it’s as much as them to pick.
As I stated, now we’ve got our main variations. For instance, proper now we’re having a struggle with them about they wish to lower 30% from the meals for which ladies, toddler kids for for meals, for meals. Out of the mouths of babes are, what, 80%, 70 to 80% for low earnings heating. Help for principally poor seniors in our nation. The listing goes on and on concerning the issues that they wish to lower on. They’ve Social Safety, Medicare, Medicaid, all of that on the desk. Why? As a result of they’re involved concerning the funds. They’re involved about feeding infants. However they weren’t involved once they get a $2 trillion tax lower to the richest individuals in America. And it was. However with curiosity to the nationwide debt, $2 trillion, 83% of it went to the highest 1%, not creating any vitality in our. However they didn’t fear concerning the nationwide debt or the funds then.
Marisa Lagos: I imply, what I’m listening to you say is that this isn’t Democrats accountability. And it appears, from what we’ve heard, that speaker, former Speaker McCarthy, didn’t provide Democrats something. Didn’t come to the desk to speak to attempt to save his speakership. So, I imply, what do you wish to see achieved and what what does it matter? Like, what can the Congress not do on this second as a result of there’s no management?
Nancy Pelosi: Properly, we would like him to have a speakership as a result of the one factor the appearing speaker can do is have a speaker’s election. Nothing else.
Scott Shafer: Didn’t take away the workplace, although. Didn’t in addition they take away your workplace?
Nancy Pelosi: I don’t care about that. What I care about is taking meals out of the mouths of infants. I had a ceremonial workplace the place I had guests, heads of state, heads of parliaments, and all the remainder come by way of. If I don’t have to try this, I may spend extra time on politics. However nonetheless, we received’t go into that. That’s crucial factor we are able to do, is win the subsequent election completely, positively. However yeah, that, that housekeeping stuff, that’s nothing however the however the what’s one thing is that they’ve to have the ability to come collectively and I hope that they may come collectively, elect their speaker in order that we are able to have the controversy, that the American individuals can see the distinction and attempt to discover our widespread floor, if that’s doable. However we’ve got our main variations. There’s simply no query about that. One factor we do, two issues we do agree on. One is the help to Israel on this horrible scenario. And we we’ve had bipartisan, bicameral Home and Senate, Democrat and Republican, assist for Israel on a regular basis after which, in fact, for the Ukraine as nicely. These are pressing issues. We’d like a speaker in order that we are able to get that achieved.
Scott Shafer: I can perceive, , you wish to wade into the Republican politics, however you might have labored with, , quite a few Republican, proper, as Speaker Newt Gingrich, John Boehner, who cried on the opening of the revealing of your portrait. You understand, Ryan.
Nancy Pelosi: Cried for lots of causes.
Scott Shafer: However so I assume what I’m getting at is there appear to be two, possibly three, when you embody McCarthy, as a result of he’s left the door open to coming again. However Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan, founding father of the Freedom Caucus, you should have a do you see a distinction between them or. McCarthy The three of them, yeah.
Marisa Lagos: Particularly given Jordan form of involvement in pushing the massive lie concerning the 2020 election and submitting lawsuits to undermine it.
Nancy Pelosi: Yeah. Properly, right here’s the factor. I’ve been there a very long time and I’ve labored with Republicans and fairly frankly, coming from San Francisco, I imply, it’s of all of the titles, speaker, chief, whip and all that, nothing is extra thrilling than to stroll on the ground and say, I converse for the individuals of San Francisco. That’s that’s actually thrilling. And so we’ve got our. Priorities. And we’re town of Saint Francis and we’ve got our values and the remainder. So if you go on the ground, you welcome the vitality of variations of opinion and debate, and hopefully you will discover your widespread floor. And that has all the time been the case.
I’ve admired so most of the Republicans that I’ve labored with in an earlier day, whether or not it was for the surroundings, whether or not it was for human rights, So many points the place we work collectively and I’m appropriator and or appropriations, it’s very so far as bipartisanship because it may get. And identical factor on intelligence, my different committee, a really bipartisan up till a sure level when Newt Gingrich got here alongside, he actually he it was a a unique day. He would give them issues to place of their cellphone, of their automotive once they go residence saying name them traitors, name them treasonous. This was a that was the crossing the edge. As dangerous as he was, these guys simply put him within the shade as a result of they it truly is a unique breed of cat. So the concept you’d go in. I all the time say to my very own constituents, we don’t have 218. San Francisco, we’re making an attempt, however we don’t have to attend in even when we’ve got to. 18 Democrats, there’s variations of opinion.
And once more, our founders, our founders, they did this stunning factor with the democracy. Luckily, they made our founding doc, the Structure. Amendable in order that we may right among the compromises that they needed to make. However it was a couple of democracy the place you had the variations of opinion and also you debated and also you didn’t resent a distinction of opinion. You welcomed it. Hope to win the controversy, at the least get a excessive break up in your aspect for no matter resolution there could be there. However nonetheless, win some, lose some, however all the time respect the individuals who despatched every particular person there from their very own district that I would like them to respect my constituents. So. So. However that is very totally different now.
Marisa Lagos: So when you’re a selection between a Consultant Scalise and a Consultant Jordan from a Democratic perspective, does it matter which one is accountable for the Home?
Nancy Pelosi: That’s as much as the Republicans.
Scott Shafer: Does it matter to you?
Nancy Pelosi: That’s as much as the Republicans.
Marisa Lagos: All proper, all proper.
Nancy Pelosi: If I informed you who I most popular it wouldn’t assist that particular person. If I informed you what I considered Jim Jordan, that will be terrible too.
Scott Shafer: Do you might have an unnamed choice? Do you might have an unnamed choice?
Nancy Pelosi: Hakeem Jeffries. I’m decided he’s going to be speaker as quickly as doable.
Marisa Lagos: Let me ask about this impression on Democratic politics. Do you assume the chaos taking place proper now McCarthy is ousting? The infighting amongst Republicans will assist Democrats choose up seats, notably all these purple districts in California that you just guys are focusing on?
Nancy Pelosi: Properly in California. Because of all of you in California. Once I first began to say, individuals stated to me, you need to run for management. I didn’t have any intent, however really I didn’t intend to run for Congress. However individuals stated, it’s important to run. It’s important to run. Identical factor for management. We had 26 Democrats and 26 Republicans. And I stated I used to be former chair of the occasion. I understand how to do that. You simply give me California. And that evening, 2000, we had went from 26, 26 to 31, 21, picked up ten seats in California. After which we grew and we grew. And that was actually largely how Democrats took again the Home of Representatives. Thanks, California. However we additionally received in different components of the nation as nicely. The. We’re not about. Oh, they’re horrible. It’s about what we current to the American individuals. That is a couple of imaginative and prescient. Why? Why are we there? We’re there for a greater.
This president has been nice. Joe Biden has been so visionary in how we advance an economic system that’s from the underside up and the center in, not from the trickle down. 83% going to the highest 1% in all of our laws, whether or not it was a restoration, the rescue package deal, whether or not it was a bipartisan infrastructure invoice, we had 13 Republican votes, nevertheless it was bipartisan. The CHIPS Act, the PACT Act for our veterans, whether or not it was the I.R.A., the largest funding in defending the environment, saving our planet, and the historical past not solely of our nation, however of any nation. All of it, although, he had with a system of fairness, justice, inclusion, in order that many extra individuals may have entry to the schooling, to the coaching, to the apprenticeships, to the choice making as to what infrastructure they want to see of their communities and their percentages. He had a giant proportion that ought to go to. Utterly neighborhood oriented, group oriented determination making in that.
So that is a couple of imaginative and prescient of inclusion for our nation. It’s about information of the problems that he has been there even longer than I’ve, for much longer than I’ve. He’s been there, is aware of the problems. He’s strategic. He’s a legislator, a senator, vp, a president of United, a imaginative and prescient, information, judgment, strategic thinker. However that’s all up right here and in his coronary heart, probably the most empathetic president you may discover. He is aware of and he cares. And that’s what we’ve got to get throughout as a result of it makes a distinction to our democracy. So this complete class is the spine of our democracy. I imagine the center class has a union label on it. And and our democratic priorities make it stronger. However nonetheless, this president and our Democratic Congress have loads to be pleased with about. We had a imaginative and prescient. We had a plan. Imaginative and prescient with out a plan, a fantasy. Imaginative and prescient with a plan: victory.
Scott Shafer: You described the president kind of as a mensch. You described a former speaker with a unique M phrase, moron.
Nancy Pelosi: I didn’t say he was a moron. I stated what he stated was moronic. That was totally different.
Scott Shafer: The place do you, as any individual who has you’re have been referred to as the, , the simplest speaker in trendy instances. You your self have referred to as your self a grasp legislator.
Nancy Pelosi: Yeah.
Scott Shafer: The place do you assume —
Nancy Pelosi: I’ve.
Scott Shafer: The place do you assume the previous speaker fell quick?
Nancy Pelosi: Which one are we speaking about? Oh, yeah, the main one. Properly, I believe that as I stated on the time, it was changing into the extremely shrinking speakership. The speakership has superior accountability and subsequently energy, however you might have to have the ability to use it in a manner that builds consensus so that you’ve sustainability for what you do. However as a way to win the speakership, he gave away so lots of his, shall we embrace, avenues to success, together with saying that one particular person may vacate the chair. And that that was most unlucky as a result of, nicely, possibly there have been eight. Perhaps we stated simply make it extra or make it the speaker, the bulk chief or the bulk whip or any individual who has brings extra heft to it, that that’s simply course of the opposite hand.
There was a thought that in our on our aspect of the aisle, he didn’t maintain his phrase by way of the president, agreeing with the president on the debt ceiling. This we’re going to proceed on this manner. We’re going to construct our appropriations payments round this quantity. After which he walked away from it. He stated, what’s his identify was answerable for January sixth, after which he kissed his ring. You understand, that form of stuff. You understand, how will you depend on any individual? As a result of your phrase is crucial factor that you’ve in all of that. And conditions change. However then it’s important to acknowledge that. And I believe that I say this fastidiously, however I believe that folks didn’t belief his phrase.
Scott Shafer: And that’s it for this version of Political Breakdown, the place a manufacturing of KQED Public Radio.
Marisa Lagos: Our engineers right now are Christopher Beal and Jim Bennett. Particular thanks as nicely to the KQED reside workforce, together with Ryan Davis and Lance Gardner. I’m Marisa Lagos.